More results...
A BRIT mum facing the death penalty for allegedly smuggling £300,000 of cocaine into Bali has said she “won’t trust people so easily again”.
Lisa Stocker, 39, br…
A BRIT OAP has been caught allegedly trying to smuggle more than 60 kilos of cannabis onto a Spanish car ferry.
The 69-year-old was detained after police found the drug in his car prepared to board the vessel at Spain’s North African encla…
YOU’RE enjoying a night out – partying with friends – when suddenly you begin to feel woozy, you feel your heartbeat increase, you start to see hallucinations and you find you can’t even speak.
Then you black out, waking up hours or even days later with no memory of what has just happened – you may have been spiked with a terrifying drug known as the “Devil’s Breath”.
Devil’s Breath comes from the seeds of the Borrachero tree[/caption]
Deborah Oscar was left fearing for her safety after being “spiked” with the drug[/caption]
Tourists and revellers around the globe fear they are being targeted with the mysterious drug – which is said to turn people into “zombies”.
It has been linked to tens of thousands of crimes in South America – and is even behind several deaths.
It’s also been reported in European holiday hotspots, including in the UK.
Officially called scopolamine, the “Devil’s Breath” is derived from the toxic Borrachero tree from South America and it has become a weapon of choice for criminals.
Once tested by the CIA as a truth serum, the drug renders its victims powerless, compliant, and blank — leaving them unable to resist, and often unable to recall anything afterwards.
A leading UK addiction specialist told The Sun that the misuse of Devil’s Breath could pose one of the most dangerous threats to the public – with it being used by criminals in robberies, assaults and sexual attacks.
And a top Spanish anti-drug cop has issued a warning to tourists – telling them be on the lookout for Devil’s Breath in party hotspots.
Meanwhile, a British woman who claims to have been spiked with the mind-warping drug also issued a stark warning to both holidaymakers and people on nights out.
Zaheen Ahmed, director at UK Addiction Treatment, told The Sun the drug can cause terrifying symptoms – with users becoming vulnerable almost instantly, with symptoms likened to sedation, confusion, and memory loss, he explained.
“It will create hallucinations,” Mr Ahmed said.
“A person will have difficulty around their thinking. That’s why people use it in criminal activity… it can be a really dangerous weapon.
“It can be one of the world’s most dangerous [drugs], given what it can do to people if it’s used the wrong way.”
And he described how the drug’s method of administration makes it far more threatening than typical date-rape drugs.
He explained: “For example, with other drugs, they have to mix it and someone has to digest it.
“But with Devil’s Breath, someone can hold it in their hand and just blow it on your face — so how are you going to protect yourself?”
The drug has already been implicated in several chilling deaths.
In 2019, Irish dancer Adrian Murphy was murdered in London after being poisoned with scopolamine by a woman he met on Grindr.
She and her boyfriend were convicted of his murder and the attempted murder of another man.
More recently, Alessandro Coatti, a 42-year-old British-based scientist, was discovered dismembered in Santa Marta, Colombia.
Lured via a dating app, investigators suspect he was drugged before being brutally murdered.
His severed limbs were scattered across the city — a hotel wristband was all that remained to identify him.
Devil’s Breath is now feared to be making its way into UK cities – with one woman Deborah Oscar believing she narrowly escaped an attack while riding the Elizabeth Line.
She told The Sun: “I suddenly felt very peaceful. Like the first few seconds when you have anaesthesia before a surgery.”
The 30-year-old content creator said she was riding a nearly empty train when a woman wafted a newspaper in her face, stared intently, and sat beside her.
Moments later, Deborah said she felt lightheaded and unnaturally calm.
“I assumed she was a confused tourist about to ask for directions,” she recalled.
“But she just maintained eye contact — it felt eerie and very odd.”
Deborah managed to escape by switching carriages and disembarking early — a decision she now believes may have saved her life.
“If I hadn’t seen those videos, I would probably have just sat there and I don’t know what would have happened.”
Her TikTok story has since gone viral, with 20 people in the UK saying they had similar experiences, and hundreds more abroad sharing suspicions of being drugged with scopolamine.
“The criminals know there are few repercussions,” she said.
“What can you do when you tell the police you gave someone your own phone or bag?”
She added: “Nobody wants to be rude or appear paranoid. But it’s better to recognise the situation and flee and be safe than to take a risk.”
British Transport Police confirmed they are aware of the video – but no formal report has been filed.
And Transport for London also said they were investigating the incident – describing it as “extremely frightening”.
While Mr Ahmed stressed the need for toxicology information, he didn’t rule out the possibility of Deborah being exposed to scopolamine in the reported attack.
He said: “It is a high chance this can happen easily… there are drugs available that can instantly affect a human being.
“If that’s the case [the attack was made with scopolamine], it will completely change the whole game — how people are going to rob people, snatch things… the situation will become really dangerous.”
The 30-year-old suspects she was spiked on a London train with ‘Devil’s Breath’ drug[/caption]
And Deborah is not the only person who claims to have been hit with the drug in the UK.
American tourist and crypto investor Jacob Irwin-Cline, 30, claims to have been spiked and robbed while in a fake Uber in London.
He claims he was robbed for around £100,000 after smoking a cigarette laced with what he believes was Devil’s Breath.
Irwin-Cline says he was offered the smoke by the driver – but then started to feel dazed, drowsy and passed out after a leaving a Soho nightclub.
He claimed he was left “really docile” and has vague memories of the driver asking him for his passkeys on his crypto apps.
He then passed out after around 30 minutes.
The US tech whiz suspects he was hit with scopolamine, the Devil’s Breath, during the suspected spiking on May 9.
REPORTS of the Devil’s Breath drug have been seen across South American, Europe and even in the UK.
Some people may take the drug on purpose for a “dream-like state” it can induce, mistakenly thinking it will be like mainstream hallucinogens like LSD.
But Devil’s Breath hallucinations tend to be far more disturbing and disjointed, often manifesting as nightmarish visions or confusing scenarios that blur the lines of reality.
It may also be taken by mistake due to its close resemblance to cocaine.
The correct dosage of the drug is notoriously hard to pin down, and even a slight miscalculation can lead to an overdose.
This can lead to respiratory failure, acute psychosis and even death.
Symptoms may include dry mouth, difficulty speaking, lethargy, hallucinations, rapid heartbeat and disorientation.
Source: The UKAT Group
Hermelo Molero, a top Spanish anti-drug cop based in Bilbao, issued a chilling warning to tourists on how they can be targeted – especially in nightlife-heavy spots abroad.
Spain recorded its first case of the zombie drug being used in 2016 – when a 36-year-old woman in Majorca tested positive for the substance.
He told The Sun: “It is always related to nightlife, especially crowded nightclubs.
“In summer, it is common to look for places full of tourists where the victim is even more defenceless.”
What’s more chilling is that the substance isn’t just used for theft – but more heinous crimes too.
Mr Molero continued: “This type of substance is used for crimes against property [robbery] and sexual aggression, as these drugs are used to subdue the victims, who do not have the same defence options.”
Alongside being wafted in victim’s faces, the drug is “easily dissolved in drinks” – with criminals using “the victim’s carelessness with a drink that is being ingested,” the drug chief explained.
He added: “Generally, when it is to steal, the offenders are usually two or more people, especially if they have the intention of not only stealing your belongings but also want to steal from your home or hotel.
“If the interest is sexual, it is usually a sexual predator who acts individually.”
Mr Molero warned holidaymakers to “always keep your drinks under control” and stressed the importance of maintaining “a high level of awareness” as “if we are very drunk we will hardly be able to control our drinks”.
He said: “If it is a bottle use the stopper to protect it and if it is a glass it is not a bad option to put a paper napkin over [it].”
Mr Ahmed recommends the public stay cautious in crowded spaces and consider basic protective measures.
“If someone is blowing [powder], they might wear a mask or something that will protect them,” he said.
Just 10 milligrams of scopolamine can obliterate a person’s free will.
The drug disrupts memory formation and suppresses higher brain function, leaving the victim suggestible and eerily cooperative – handing over PINs, passwords, and valuables without hesitation.
Criminal gangs in Colombia are dispersing the drug in drinks, gum, cigarettes — even business cards soaked in the substance — often after luring victims via dating apps like Tinder or Grindr.
Grapefruit juice enhances the drug’s potency, slowing its breakdown and increasing absorption in the gut.
In Bogotá and Medellín, the tactics are disturbingly creative: sprinkled scopolamine on jackets, ATMs, even elevator buttons.
Victims faint, blackout, or enter a dream-like obedience state — all before realising what’s happened.
Tourists in Colombia are being targeted by gangs wielding a terrifying drug known as Devil’s Breath[/caption]
Tourist deaths in Colombia – many of them drug linked – surged by 29% last year, and Medellín saw a 200% spike in Devil’s Breath robberies in the final quarter of 2023 alone.
The US Embassy has since issued a high-alert advisory, warning: “Use of dating apps can increase your risk.”
One of the alleged masterminds is Carolina Mejía Montoya, 27, dubbed The Queen of Scopolamine.
She is believed to have led a multimillion-peso theft ring in Medellín, using her looks to charm foreign tourists before drugging and stripping them of cash, cards, and jewellery.
CCTV shows her ushering victims into short-term rentals — where they were later found drugged and confused.
On one night alone, she allegedly stole 120 million pesos from two men.
Despite previously being placed under house arrest, she vanished and continued her spree — until police finally caught up with her.
The impact of Devil’s Breath is described by victims as both hypnotic and terrifying.
Fernando, a 64-year-old from the UK, believes he fell victim while on a business trip to Bogotá back in 2012.
He told The Telegraph: “It’s very dangerous because you’re totally hypnotised, you do anything they say.”
After drinking what he suspects was a spiked beer, Fernando blacked out and woke up the following day with €1,000 missing.
CCTV later showed him returning to his hotel, retrieving a bank card from his safe, and leaving again—all while still under the drug’s influence.
“It does something to your brain where you forget completely… it’s like a vacuum,” he added.
Gang boss Carolina Meija Montoya arrested in Medellin[/caption]
A TikTok user known as “Manning” claimed he was drugged with scopolamine and attacked after connecting with someone through a dating app[/caption]
Others have faced even worse outcomes.
A Colombian TikTok user known as Juan Esteban “Manning” recounted being drugged after a Tinder date and waking up six hours later in a looted apartment, stripped of everything from designer clothes to flip-flops.
“It was the worst experience. I woke up and found myself lying in my apartment, a mess,” he said, according to Infobae.
Security footage showed his date calmly walking out with stolen suitcases.
And it’s not limited to nightlife or dating apps.
In Bogotá, attackers have used scopolamine in broad daylight — dusted on jackets, notebooks, even ATM keypads.
The drug’s power lies in its stealth — most victims don’t realise they’ve been exposed until far too late.
Many never report it out of confusion, embarrassment or shame.
Toxicology professor Kamyar Afarinkia explained the drug’s ease of use: “You can get a business card, soak it in [scopolamine], let it dry and then give it to somebody.
“When they touch it, unless they wash their hands quickly, it gets absorbed under their skin.”
In North Carolina, Charlotte resident Paranda Davis took to Facebook to sound the alarm after a close friend was allegedly drugged by a stranger.
“She remembered a Hispanic woman approaching her… and then everything went blank,” Davis wrote.
Hospital tests later confirmed Scopolamine was in her system, according to Davis.
“This incident happened right here in Charlotte, NC and I know the victim personally,” she posted.
“She gave me full permission to share her story in hopes of warning others.”
Davis urged followers to stay alert, noting criminals may “blow it in your face, lace your drink, or put it on paper, cards, or handshakes.”
Another Facebook user, Angela Moore, reposted Davis’ warning, adding: “This exactly what happened to me.”
Not all experts agree on the scale of the threat. Former government toxicologist Dr Les King argues the effects of scopolamine might be overstated.
He notes that the drug is a solid, not a gas, and claims it would be difficult to absorb enough through casual contact to incapacitate someone.
“Just picking up something that’s been impregnated with this drug is not going to cause you any harm,” Dr King said.
He added that other drugs like benzodiazepines may be behind many reported cases, citing a lack of toxicological evidence for scopolamine-related attacks.
But for Deborah — and many others — the danger feels very real.
“The more people that know,” she said, “the more people that might be able to help. Or help someone else who is being targeted.”
“Trust your gut,” Deborah warns.
“It’s best to be wary — than to be a victim.”
DRUG “mule” Bella Culley’s silent cries for help have been revealed as she “was watched” by a drugs gang going through the airport, her lawyer has claimed.
Bella, 19, was told yesterday that her trial on drug smuggling charges has been postponed amid talks over a possible “plea bargain” deal.
Thai police have now released CCTV footage of the Brit going through the automated gates at Suvarnabhumi Airport in Thailand[/caption]
Police confirmed she used a British passport to exit Thailand[/caption]
Bella Culley seen in court at the beginning of July as her devastated family watched on[/caption]
The teenager appeared at Tbilisi City Court on Thursday after claiming she had been burned with a hot iron and shown a beheading video by a Thailand-based gang.
Bella was arrested on arrival at the airport at Georgian capital Tbilisi in May with £200,000 worth of cannabis in her hold baggage.
But she has since claimed the bag was checked in by a gang member and she never saw it before Georgian police stopped her at customs.
Bella’s attempt to escape a jail term has been complicated by the release of Thai CCTV footage said to contradict her claims that she tried to alert cops at Bangkok airport.
The next hearing was yesterday put back to July 24 while prosecutors and Bella’s Georgian lawyer Malkhaz Salakaia attempt to strike a deal.
He told The Sun how cops missed her silent cries for help.
Mr Salakaia said: “I fail to see how that’s substantial. Of course they are going to say that.
“What hasn’t been said or shown is the fact that the people who brought and handed in this baggage were still nearby and she couldn’t communicate openly.
“She tried to signal it to them, without being noticed herself, that it wasn’t her baggage but wasn’t paid any attention.”
Trainee nurse Bella, from Billingham, Teesside – who got pregnant on the Far East backpacking trip where she met British gang members – faces a life jail term.
The teenager – in a pink t-shirt showing her baby bump – was again supported in court on Thursday by her oil rig worker father Niel, 39, who urged her to “stay strong” as she fought to stay composed.
The next hearing was put back to July 24 while prosecutors and Bella’s lawyer Salakaia attempt to strike a deal.
Mr Salakaia told The Sun: “The sides have entered the phase of negotiation over the plea bargain, to see whether this could be an eventual option.
“We haven’t reached agreement yet. Our position is the release of my client and paying the fine. We ll see where we end up after negotiations”.
Bella has been held for 61 days at Tbilisi’s Number Five Women’s Penitentiary accused of importing 31lbs of cannabis and hashish.
She flew from Bangkok via Sharjah in Abu Dhabi on May 10 and her lawyer revealed she was unsure where she was when she was arrested.
A Georgian police spokesman confirmed that, if found guilty, she could face between 20 years in jail and a life term.
Bella claimed baggage containing the cannabis was carried to the airport for her and put in the plane’s hold when she boarded a flight from Bangkok in May.
Cops said cannabis was found wrapped in air-tight bags in Bella’s luggage[/caption]
The Brit told a court she was tortured into trafficking £200,000-worth of cannabis by evil crimelords[/caption]
She was caught at Tblisi International Airport with 30 pounds of marijuana and hashish in her luggage on May 10[/caption]
Her family launched a missing person hunt in Thailand after she vanished on holiday but she turned up under arrest 4,000 miles away in the European nation.
Then on her first court appearance she announced she was pregnant.
CCTV footage of Bella was released, which cops say rubbishes her claim she was coerced into transporting the £200,000 drug stash.
Police Major General Cherngron Rimphadee said a few weeks ago: “This matter is not complicated.
“Police have reviewed CCTV footage and confirmed that she used a British passport to exit through the automatic passport control channel.
“As a result, she did not interact with or speak to any immigration officers and simply exited the country.”
Thai authorities say Bella’s claims of seeking help from customs staff are “absolutely baseless”.
Surveillance shows the teen, from Billingham, Teesside, apparently passing calmly through Suvarnabhumi Airport’s automated gates without raising any red flags.
“There is no evidence whatsoever that any immigration or police officers forced or threatened the suspect to smuggle drugs out of the country,” Lt. Gen. Choengron said.
“It was a deliberate departure.”
The footage had reportedly been shared with media outlets in an attempt to debunk Bella’s courtroom testimony in Tblisi, where she claimed she “didn’t want to do this” and was allegedly forced under torture.
Bella’s lawyer, Malkhaz Salakaia, claimed corrupt Thai police officers were in on the trafficking ring and that when Bella turned to one for help, she realised he was part of the gang.
Bella May Culley claims she was coerced into transporting £200k worth of cannabis[/caption]
Bella has said she never touched the drugs found in her suitcase[/caption]
Salakaia alleged she and her family were threatened with beheading if she didn’t comply.
He went on to claim that “They told her: we know the addresses of your parents, we know where your 16-year-old brother is”, before showing her a video of a person being beheaded.
The court was also shown a scar on her arm which Salakaia said was inflicted before the suitcase containing the drugs – which she allegedly never touched – was given to her.
But Thai police say it’s all an attempt to wriggle out of punishment.
Officials believe the teen’s high-stakes tale is part of a strategy to secure a lighter sentence in Georgia.
The Georgian prosecution has charged her with “illegally purchasing and storing a particularly large amount of narcotics” and “illegally importing them into the country”.
Thai cops said she would now be blacklisted for entering the country “to commit a drug offence”, citing a breach of Section 12 of the Immigration Act.
A SLEW of drug mule arrests involving Brits have emerged in the last few months.
In April and May, two Brit women were arrested abroad for alleged drug smuggling.
Bella was the first after she allegedly tried to smuggle a suitcase of weed into Georgia.
Meanwhile, former air stewardess Charlotte May Lee was also caught allegedly trying to smuggle drugs worth £1.2million into Sri Lanka.
Her two suitcases were said to have been stuffed with 46kg of a synthetic cannabis strain known as kush — which is 25 times more potent than opioid fentanyl.
If found guilty, South Londoner Charlotte could face a 25-year sentence.
As a young mum was detained in Germany for allegedly smuggling cannabis in her bags on a flight from Thailand – in yet another shocking case.
Glamorous Cameron Bradford, 21, from Knebworth, Herts, was detained at Munich Airport on April 21 as she tried to collect her luggage.
It comes as a Brit couple claiming to be tourists from Thailand have been busted with more than 33kg of cannabis in their suitcases at a Spanish airport.
The pair were picked out by suspicious cops at Valencia Airport after displaying a “nervous and evasive attitude” and are now behind bars on drug trafficking charges.
Experts told The Sun how wannabe Brit Insta stars are being lured by cruel gangs into carting drugs across the world.
Then last month, a six-year-old British boy was arrested in Mauritius suspected of smuggling part of a £1.6million dope haul stuffed inside his wheelie case.
The lad was picked up by customs officials along with his mum and five other Brits as they arrived on the tropical island.
Authorities branded the use of a child in the audacious drug smuggling plot as “inhumane”.
A BRITISH drug mule, accused of smuggling 244 grams of cocaine into Bali, begged for leniency by telling a court: “I am just depressed right now.”
An Indonesian court heard…
PREGNANT Brit “mule” Bella Culley’s drug trial in Georgia has been postponed over “evidence issue”.
Bella from Billingham, County Durham, appeared at Tbilisi City Court for a brief hearing after she previously denied charges of possession and trafficking marijuana and the narcotic hashish.
Thai police have now released CCTV footage of the Brit going through the automated gates at Suvarnabhumi Airport in Thailand[/caption]
Cops said cannabis was found wrapped in air-tight bags in Bella’s luggage[/caption]
Bella Culley seen in court at the beginning of July as her devastated family watched on[/caption]
The court heard there were issues surrounding evidence that must be resolved.
Bella’s heartbroken dad, who was present in court, told her to “stay strong”.
Her next hearing is scheduled for 24 July.
Bella claimed baggage containing the cannabis was carried to the airport for her and put in the plane’s hold when she boarded a flight from Bangkok in May.
Her family launched a missing person hunt in Thailand after she vanished on holiday but she turned up under arrest 4,000 miles away in the European nation.
Then on her first court appearance she announced she was pregnant.
CCTV footage of Bella was released, which cops say rubbishes her claim she was coerced into transporting the £200,000 drug stash.
Police Major General Cherngron Rimphadee said a few weeks ago: “This matter is not complicated.
“Police have reviewed CCTV footage and confirmed that she used a British passport to exit through the automatic passport control channel.
Police confirmed she she used a British passport to exit Thailand[/caption]
The Brit told a court she was tortured into trafficking £200,000-worth of cannabis by evil crimelords[/caption]
She was caught at Tblisi International Airport with 30 pounds of marijuana and hashish in her luggage on May 10[/caption]
“As a result, she did not interact with or speak to any immigration officers and simply exited the country.”
Thai authorities say Bella’s claims of seeking help from customs staff are “absolutely baseless”.
Surveillance shows the teen, from Billingham, Teesside, apparently passing calmly through Suvarnabhumi Airport’s automated gates without raising any red flags.
“There is no evidence whatsoever that any immigration or police officers forced or threatened the suspect to smuggle drugs out of the country,” Lt. Gen. Choengron said.
“It was a deliberate departure.”
The footage had reportedly been shared with media outlets in an attempt to debunk Bella’s courtroom testimony in Tblisi, where she claimed she “didn’t want to do this” and was allegedly forced under torture.
Bella’s lawyer, Malkhaz Salakaia, claimed corrupt Thai police officers were in on the trafficking ring and that when Bella turned to one for help, she realised he was part of the gang.
Salakaia alleged she and her family were threatened with beheading if she didn’t comply.
He went on to claim that “They told her: we know the addresses of your parents, we know where your 16-year-old brother is”, before showing her a video of a person being beheaded.
Bella May Culley claims she was coerced into transporting £200k worth of cannabis[/caption]
Bella has said she never touched the drugs found in her suitcase[/caption]
The court was also shown a scar on her arm which Salakaia said was inflicted before the suitcase containing the drugs – which she allegedly never touched – was given to her.
But Thai police say it’s all an attempt to wriggle out of punishment.
Officials believe the teen’s high-stakes tale is part of a strategy to secure a lighter sentence in Georgia.
The Georgian prosecution has charged her with “illegally purchasing and storing a particularly large amount of narcotics” and “illegally importing them into the country”.
Bella currently faces up to 20 years or even life behind bars if convicted.
The teen, who now claims she is 18 weeks pregnant, was previously seen online bragging about “getting up to criminal activities” and flashing thick wads of cash.
Thai cops said she would now be blacklisted for entering the country “to commit a drug offence”, citing a breach of Section 12 of the Immigration Act.
A SLEW of drug mule arrests involving Brits have emerged in the last few months.
In April and May, two Brit women were arrested abroad for alleged drug smuggling.
Bella was the first after she allegedly tried to smuggle a suitcase of weed into Georgia.
Meanwhile, former air stewardess Charlotte May Lee was also caught allegedly trying to smuggle drugs worth £1.2million into Sri Lanka.
Her two suitcases were said to have been stuffed with 46kg of a synthetic cannabis strain known as kush — which is 25 times more potent than opioid fentanyl.
If found guilty, South Londoner Charlotte could face a 25-year sentence.
As a young mum was detained in Germany for allegedly smuggling cannabis in her bags on a flight from Thailand – in yet another shocking case.
Glamorous Cameron Bradford, 21, from Knebworth, Herts, was detained at Munich Airport on April 21 as she tried to collect her luggage.
It comes as a Brit couple claiming to be tourists from Thailand have been busted with more than 33kg of cannabis in their suitcases at a Spanish airport.
The pair were picked out by suspicious cops at Valencia Airport after displaying a “nervous and evasive attitude” and are now behind bars on drug trafficking charges.
Experts told The Sun how wannabe Brit Insta stars are being lured by cruel gangs into carting drugs across the world.
Then last month, a six-year-old British boy was arrested in Mauritius suspected of smuggling part of a £1.6million dope haul stuffed inside his wheelie case.
The lad was picked up by customs officials along with his mum and five other Brits as they arrived on the tropical island.
Authorities branded the use of a child in the audacious drug smuggling plot as “inhumane”.
Chief inspector says jails in England and Wales are overwhelmed by contraband, overcrowding and lack of staffThe volume of drugs being delivered by drones into prisons is severely undermining hopes of rehabilitation among inmates, a watchdog has warned…
THIS is the dramatic moment drug smugglers set their own yacht alight to destroy their gargantuan cocaine haul.
Moments before, the two men had been chased by a police boat just o…
NEW CCTV footage of Bella May Culley has been released – which cops say rubbishes her claim she was coerced into transporting a £200,000 drug stash.
The 19-year-old Brit is …
Prosecutors claim Chávez treated gang rivals ‘like a punchbag’ before Ice arrested Mexican boxer in CaliforniaThe Mexican boxer Julio César Chávez Jr was a henchman for the Sinaloa drugs cartel and used his skills to pummel rival gang members “like a p…